Very true, he said.
Again, would you not be cautious of affirming that the addition of one to one, or the division of one, is the cause of two?
And you would loudly asseverate that you know of no way in which anything comes into existence except by participation in its own proper essence, and consequently, as far as you know, the only cause of two is the participation in duality; that is the way to make two, and the participation in one is the way to make one.
You would say: I will let alone puzzles of division and addition-wiser heads than mine may answer them; inexperienced as I am, and ready to start, as the proverb says, at my own shadow, I cannot afford to give up the sure ground of a principle.
And if anyone assails you there, you would not mind him, or answer him until you had seen whether the consequences which follow agree with one another or not, and when you are further required to give an explanation of this principle, you would go on to assume a higher principle, and the best of the higher ones, until you found a resting-place; but you would not refuse the principle and the consequences in your reasoning like the Eristics-at least if you wanted to discover real existence.
Not that this confusion signifies to them who never care or think about the matter at all, for they have the wit to be well pleased with themselves, however great may be the turmoil of their ideas.
But you, if you are a philosopher, will, I believe, do as I say.
What you say is most true, said Simmias and Cebes, both speaking at once.
Ech.
Yes, Phaedo; and I don't wonder at their assenting.
Anyone who has the least sense will acknowledge the wonderful clear.
of Socrates' reasoning.
Phaed.
Certainly, Echecrates; and that was the feeling of the whole company at the time.
Ech.
Yes, and equally of ourselves, who were not of the company, and are now listening to your recital.
But what followed?
Phaedo.
After all this was admitted, and they had agreed about the existence of ideas and the participation in them of the other things which derive their names from them, Socrates, if I remember rightly, said:- This is your way of speaking; and yet when you say that Simmias is greater than Socrates and less than Phaedo, do you not predicate of Simmias both greatness and smallness?
Yes, I do.
But still you allow that Simmias does not really exceed Socrates, as the words may seem to imply, because he is Simmias, but by reason of the size which he has; just as Simmias does not exceed Socrates because he is Simmias, any more than because Socrates is Socrates, but because he has smallness when compared with the greatness of Simmias?
True.
And if Phaedo exceeds him in size, that is not because Phaedo is Phaedo, but because Phaedo has greatness relatively to Simmias, who is comparatively smaller?
That is true.
And therefore Simmias is said to be great, and is also said to be small, because he is in a mean between them, exceeding the smallness of the one by his greatness, and allowing the greatness of the other to exceed his smallness.
He added, laughing, I am speaking like a book, but I believe that what I am now saying is true.
Simmias assented to this.
Themes
◆Apophatic Theologytheology
Describing the divine only by negation—God transcends all positive categories and concepts; the via negativa.
The dialogue emphasizes caution in affirming principles and acknowledging the limits of reasoning.
Augustinian and Plotinian doctrine that evil has no positive being of its own but is a lack, distortion, or absence of the good — denying ontological dualism while preserving moral seriousness.
The passage contrasts the 'real existence' pursued by philosophers with the 'turmoil of their ideas' held by those who care not.
Salvation through direct experiential knowledge of the divine nature, not through faith, ritual, or moral works alone.
The text describes a philosopher's method of ascending to higher principles until finding a resting-place through reasoning rather than accepting lower conclusions.
Diotima's staged ascent from love of beautiful bodies → beautiful souls → beautiful pursuits → beautiful knowledge → Beauty itself; the canonical scala amoris that grounds Plotinus's On the Beautiful and Bruno's Eroici Furori — distinct from generic spiritual_ascent in that eros is the specific motive force.
The passage describes a philosopher ascending to higher principles until finding a resting-place, mirroring the ascent through levels of being.
Numbers, proportions, and mathematical relationships as the underlying structure of divine reality.
The dialogue centers on the ontological status of numbers and their relationship to existence, such as the cause of two being participation in duality.