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Plato: Republic · 11 of 18 · tr. Benjamin Jowett

Section 1k

True, he replied. The spangled heavens should be used as a pattern and with a view to that higher knowledge; their beauty is like the beauty of figures or pictures excellently wrought by the hand of Daedalus, or some other great artist, which we may chance to behold; any geometrician who saw them would appreciate the exquisiteness of their workmanship, but he would never dream of thinking that in them he could find the true equal or the true double, or the truth of any other proportion. No, he replied, such an idea would be ridiculous. And will not a true astronomer have the same feeling when he looks at the movements of the stars? Will he not think that heaven and the things in heaven are framed by the Creator of them in the most perfect manner? But he will never imagine that the proportions of night and day, or of both to the month, or of the month to the year, or of the stars to these and to one another, and any other things that are material and visible can also be eternal and subject to no deviation-- that would be absurd; and it is equally absurd to take so much pains in investigating their exact truth. I quite agree, though I never thought of this before. Then, I said, in astronomy, as in geometry, we should employ problems, and let the heavens alone if we would approach the subject in the right way and so make the natural gift of reason to be of any real use. That, he said, is a work infinitely beyond our present astronomers. Yes, I said; and there are many other things which must also have a similar extension given to them, if our legislation is to be of any value. But can you tell me of any other suitable study? No, he said, not without thinking. Motion, I said, has many forms, and not one only; two of them are obvious enough even to wits no better than ours; and there are others, as I imagine, which may be left to wiser persons. But where are the two? There is a second, I said, which is the counterpart of the one already named. And what may that be? The second, I said, would seem relatively to the ears to be what the first is to the eyes; for I conceive that as the eyes are designed to look up at the stars, so are the ears to hear harmonious motions; and these are sister sciences--as the Pythagoreans say, and we, Glaucon, agree with them? Yes, he replied. But this, I said, is a laborious study, and therefore we had better go and learn of them; and they will tell us whether there are any other applications of these sciences. At the same time, we must not lose sight of our own higher object. What is that? There is a perfection which all knowledge ought to reach, and which our pupils ought also to attain, and not to fall short of, as I was saying that they did in astronomy. For in the science of harmony, as you probably know, the same thing happens. The teachers of harmony compare the sounds and consonances which are heard only, and their labour, like that of the astronomers, is in vain. Yes, by heaven! he said; and 'tis as good as a play to hear them talking about their condensed notes, as they call them; they put their ears close alongside of the strings like persons catching a sound from their neighbour's wall--one set of them declaring that they distinguish an intermediate note and have found the least interval which should be the unit of measurement; the others insisting that the two sounds have passed into the same-- either party setting their ears before their understanding.
Themes
Correspondencecosmology

The Hermetic axiom that the structure of the cosmos is reflected at every scale — 'as above, so below; as within, so without' — making each level a legible map of the others.

The text describes the 'sister sciences' of astronomy and harmony as reflecting the same divine order.

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Cosmic Sympathycosmology

The Stoic and Plotinian doctrine that all parts of the cosmos are bound by hidden affinities, so that a movement in one part resonates through the whole; the metaphysical basis for astrology, magic, and divination.

The passage explicitly states that the ears are designed to hear harmonious motions as a sister science to the eyes looking at stars.

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Divine Providencetheology

Pronoia — the doctrine that the divine actively orders the unfolding of the cosmos and human affairs toward intelligible ends, against pure chance or blind necessity.

The Creator is described as framing heaven in the most perfect manner, implying an ordered design.

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Evil As Privationtheology

Augustinian and Plotinian doctrine that evil has no positive being of its own but is a lack, distortion, or absence of the good — denying ontological dualism while preserving moral seriousness.

The text contrasts the perfection of heavenly proportions with the 'absurd' idea of material deviations.

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Gnosis Direct Knowledgesoteriology

Salvation through direct experiential knowledge of the divine nature, not through faith, ritual, or moral works alone.

The passage emphasizes approaching the subject in the right way so that reason can be of real use to attain true knowledge.

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Numerical Mysticismtheology

Numbers, proportions, and mathematical relationships as the underlying structure of divine reality.

The text explicitly discusses proportions, intervals, and mathematical relationships as fundamental structures of divine reality.

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Paradox As Teachingethics

Using apparent contradiction, reversal, or riddle to destabilise ordinary understanding and induce insight.

The dialogue uses the absurdity of material proportions being eternal to illustrate the limitations of ordinary astronomy.

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Unity Of Beingtheology

The doctrine that all existence is ultimately one substance or one divine reality; non-duality as a theological claim.

The reference to the Creator framing heaven in a perfect manner implies an underlying unity and order in existence.

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Related passages · 4 parallels
greek_mystery|Orphic Hymns|Hymn XXXIII. APOLLO (part 2)
Gesner well observes, in his notes to this Hymn, that the comparison and conjunction of the musical and astronomical elements are most ancient; being derived from Orpheus and Pythagoras, to Plato. Now, according to the Orphic and Pythagori…”
Both passages discuss the relationship between astronomy and music, drawing on Pythagorean and Orphic traditions. They emphasize the idea of celestial harmony and the metaphorical use of music to understand the orderly movements of the heavens.
neoplatonism|Iamblichus: On the Mysteries|Chapter XXX
You say, however, “ that the makers of images observe the motion of the celestial bodies, and can tell from the concurrence of what star, with a certain star or stars, predictions will be true or false; and also whether the things that are…”
Both passages discuss the limitations of empirical observation in understanding higher truths. Plato emphasizes the need for abstract reasoning in geometry and astronomy, while the second passage critiques the reliance on celestial observations for divine insights, advocating for a deeper understanding of divine nature.
western_esoteric|Tertium Organum (P.D. Ouspensky)|Chapter XVII (part 8)
Doesn't this show a singularly indigent imagination? Isn't this brave universe made on a richer pattern, with room in it for a long hierarchy of beings? Materialistic science makes it infinitely richer in terms, with its molecules, and et…”
Both passages explore the relationship between the physical world and higher knowledge or spiritual reality. Plato's passage discusses the limitations of observing the heavens for true knowledge, while the second passage from Fechner's ideas discusses the interconnectedness of all beings and the universe, emphasizing the spiritual aspects of the physical world.
western_esoteric|Transcendental Magic II: The Ritual (Éliphas Lévi)|17. The Writing Of The Starsb
It was included in the work of Montfaucon on the religions and superstitions of the world, and also in the treatise upon Magic published by the mystic Eckartshausen. Scholars, moreover, are not agreed upon the configuration of the letters…”
Both passages explore the idea that the heavens and celestial bodies are not just physical phenomena but also bear deeper, symbolic meanings. They both suggest that the study of the heavens should lead to higher knowledge and understanding, though they approach this from different cultural and philosophical perspectives.